Transcript: Mayor de Blasio Appears Live on CNN's State of the Union

December 12, 2021

Jake Tapper: Welcome back to State of the Union. I'm Jake Tapper. We're spending yet another holiday season in the shadow of COVID-19. Cases and hospitalizations are tragically rising again. And how you celebrate the holiday will certainly depend on who's in charge of your city or state. Starting this week, in New York City, anyone, including children ages five and above, will not be able to eat in a restaurant or go to a movie theater without being able to prove that they've had at least one shot for a kid and the full regiment if you're over 12. By the end of December, Mayor Bill de Blasio is requiring that all – that's right, all private sector employees will need to be vaccinated. It would be the most sweeping COVID requirements in the United States. Meanwhile, 11 states, including Arkansas, are suing to prevent the Biden administration from requiring businesses with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccines or weekly testing. And a 52-vote Senate majority, including Democrats Jon Tester and Joe Manchin, voted to overturn President Biden's vaccine mandate for businesses. Although it's unlikely the House will agree. We’re going to try something new on State of the Union today. Here to debate whether vaccine mandates are the best way to end this pandemic, Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson, and New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio.  

First of all, we should both note that you both agree that the vaccines are safe and effective. You've both gotten them. You've repeatedly urged Americans to go get vaccinated. Where you agree – on whether or not the government should mandate them. So, let's start this debate by let me – asking you, Governor Hutchinson, and then you two can just engage each other. New York City has sweeping mandates for workers and businesses, and it might sound too sweeping for some people, but 71 percent of residents of New York City are fully vaccinated. Arkansas has no mandates and only 50 percent of your residents are fully vaccinated. Does that not show, Governor Hutchinson, the vaccine mandates work? 

Governor Asa Hutchinson: Well, I don't believe it does. First of all, put it in historical perspective, that never in the history of our country has government mandated the private sector to require vaccinations. It's generally been left up to the states and localities, but it has been looked at as an education effort in our school systems. To put this into the businesses does a number of things. One, it hardens resistance. That's what we see in Arkansas, but, I think, across the country. Secondly, the courts have struck it down. By and large, the President's mandate, these mandates are unconstitutional – constitutional overreaches, and the courts are looking at it in that fashion. It's a little bit closer case when it comes to a city, because that's a government closest to the people. But if you looking at a million employees and you get a 90 percent vaccination rate, you still have 10 percent, which is a hundred thousand workers. And whenever the businesses are struggling with workers, our service providers, they're providing for their family, you don't need to add 100,000 to the unemployed list. And that would hurt us in trying to do our recovery, provide the services we need, already struggling. Even in the health care industry, if you put that mandate in, you're going to lose some health care workers as well. So, that's the reasons – part of the reasons that we put those mandates. 

Tapper: Mayor de Blasio?  

Mayor Bill de Blasio: Yeah. Governor, look – I want to speak to this, but first I want to just say, my heart goes out to the people of Arkansas. I appreciate your leadership as you're dealing with this crisis. And I want you to know, the people in New York City are praying for the people of Arkansas right now, that things recover quickly.  

Governor Hutchinson: Thank you. 

Mayor: To the question here, Governor – look, right now, here's what I fear, Omicron is here. It's all over the country. This variant moves fast. We have to move faster. And I'll tell you what I hear from our business community, that their greatest fear is shutdowns. Their greatest fear is going back to where we were in 2020, to restrictions, to people are losing their livelihood. You mentioned unemployment. The greatest threat to employment right now is that the Omicron variant and the cold winter months are going to supercharge COVID and take us backwards. So, I'm going to argue to you that mandates work and it's time – since I put mandates in place in New York City, starting in August, we've seen over a million more doses. 71 percent of our people, fully vaccinated. A lot of those people made the decision, because the mandate was there and it was the thing that moved them, and it's keeping people alive. So, I do agree with you, we have to take all the factors into account. But we've proven that mandates work. And now, we're up against a new enemy with this new variant. We've got to have a strategy to fight back. 

Tapper: Governor? 

Governor Hutchinson: Well, Mayor, I know that New York has challenges because of its density and population that perhaps other places not have. And also, the success of New York is important for my country. I've got a granddaughter that's going to school in New York City. But whenever you look at the vaccinations we are in agreement, let's increase those vaccination rates. But how do you get there? And, to me, we're right now dividing our country on this issue of mandates. But on the issue of vaccination, by and large, Republicans, Democrats, everybody are together on that. And education works. And we increased that. Here in Arkansas, I had town meetings all across the state, bringing education efforts, encouraging that. But never in history, particularly with the young people, with only an emergency use authorization by the FDA, have we mandated that vaccine at this early stage. It's right, we need that, but we know the solution to this, which is the vaccination. If you're not vaccinated, you can socially distance. You can take the steps. And private businesses should be able to make the decision themselves. Many might require of their employees to be vaccinated, but let's let them make that decision. And, of course, can make decisions as to where they want to go. But to put the mandate in is unprecedented. It's going to cause hardship. And it's going to cause division in our country, as you can already see. And so, that's the reason I think the mandates take us the wrong direction. 

Mayor: Governor, look, I respect the point about division in the country, it’s something we're all grappling with. And I want to thank you, I know you showed courage in saying that private sector employers in Arkansas should have the right, if they choose, to put a mandate in place. I appreciate you took that stand. But I'll tell you something, you have several times said, understandably, we don't have a precedent here. Yeah, I agree. We don't have a precedent, because this is absolutely an unprecedented crisis and we're about to go into year three of it. And Governor, this is my fear – you know, we thought several times we're going to leave the COVID era behind. We could leave it behind in 2022, if we truly focus on vaccination and put the tough mandates in place to make sure we turn the corner. If we don't, here's what I fear – we go back to lockdowns, restrictions. We lose another year. And I can tell you, for a lot of businesses, small business owners I've talked to, mom and pop stores, they can't afford to lose another year. So, that's the economic side. On the human side – and I'm representing a, has lost tens of thousands of our fellow residents. When you talk to someone that lost a grandparent, a father, a mother, it brings home we've got to stop this thing now. And I'll tell you – and I'll challenge you respectfully on this point, look at what mandates have allowed us to achieve. Our schools are safe. Our restaurants are thriving. Broadway is back, because people go in there and they know they're safe. Everyone's vaccinated. And it's actually kept them thriving while keeping the COVID levels low here. Why wouldn't we want that for everyone? 

Tapper: Governor? 

Hutchinson: Mayor, what is your vaccination rate in New York City before the mandates went into place? 

Mayor: It was about 57 percent before the mandate started in August. It's about 71 percent now -0 fully vaccinated, all residents. And that means about a million more doses since we put the mandates in place. And we know, we saw it with our own workforce, our public workforce. A lot of them were hesitant, truthfully. A lot of them needed some extra incentive. And the reason now – it's 94 percent of our public employees are vaccinated because of those mandates.  

Hutchinson: Okay, that's public employees. I'm talking about the private sector though, which is a totally different issue. Although, I don't believe we ought to have the mandates in place. But you are able to get to a fairly high vaccination rate through education and also because the people of New York understood the risk, and they've lived through it, they understand that. And people in Arkansas, as the risk increase, the vaccination rates increase as well. And so, through education, you have had a great deal of success. The mandates though are going to cause adverse hardship. People know what they need to do, but the mandates are going to cause consistent resistance. You're going to lose public health workers. And that's what we're going to – we're seeing in Arkansas, if we put that into place. And so, the private sector can make that decision as they've done. Whether they want a vaccine requirement for their employees, people are going to make good decisions on this, but let's not divide again on this. And so, I hope that we can work together to increase vaccination rates. You've done a great job in the city voluntarily. But the mandates, I think, you'll see are going to cause even greater hardship. And the courts are going to take a look at it. 

Tapper: And Mayor de Blasio, we should just – we should just note that you mandated all private sector workers in New York City need to get vaccinated by December 27th. That's just two days after Christmas. Should all businesses in New York City fire workers in the middle of the holidays if they refuse to get vaccinated? 

Mayor: We chose the 27th mindful, of course, of Christmas and the holiday season, Jake. And the bottom line is, what we found with all the mandates – we did this with the private sector already with restaurants, indoor entertainment, fitness, and what we found is, in fact, employees overwhelmingly agreed and followed through. They may not have thought they would like it originally, but they ultimately chose to get that shot, and, in fact, realized that everyone was safe in those settings. The customers have loved to have heard this consistently, and have heard it from restaurant owners, they're full now because people go in confident that they'll be safe. So, it's been very good for business. What's bad for business is the threat of potential shutdowns and restrictions. I've got business owners terrified that we're going to go back where we were. Look at Germany right now. Look at England right now. I mean, they are going backwards fast. So, I'd say to you, Governor, I understand the power – agree with you, education is crucial. But, right now, if for example, in Arkansas, 50 percent of folks fully vaccinated, that runs the huge risk of COVID reasserting, of, you know, hundreds or thousands of people losing their lives, particularly our seniors. I hear you on the power of education, but I'm challenging you on the question of time. We are running out time – Omicron coming, winter coming. We've got to do something more now. 

Tapper: Governor Hutchinson, final thought from you. 

Governor Hutchinson: Just a quick point. And that’s – first of all, we should not even think about shut downs. So, the businesses should not have that fear. They shouldn't have the choice of being shut down or requiring a vaccine for their employees. But secondly, it's the enforcement side. If you do not have an enforcement mechanism, then it brings disrespect for the law and it brings unfairness as to who complies and who does not comply. And so, for all of those reasons – it’s not an option of shutdown or not. But, Mayor, thank you for your leadership. And, Jake, thanks for this opportunity to debate this important issue. 

Tapper: Well, one thing we can all agree on is that everyone should get vaccinated, especially now as we approach the holidays. Thanks to both of you for joining us. We really, really appreciate the civil, spirited debate.  

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